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Title: An interview with Paul Kammann
Project: Lakeland Oral History Project
Interviewee: Paul Kammann
Interviewer: Steven Vlietstra
Interview location and date: Paul Kammann's residence in Cleveland, WI, on March 12, 2008
Length of interview: 50 minutes, 34 Pages
Name Index: Paul Kammann, Steven Vlietstra, Lakeland College, Kutum Puro, David Rath
Abstract: This initial interview was with Paul Kammann, a former employer of the author. Paul is a Lakeland College alumnus, who graduated in 1967. This interview is about his experiences at Lakeland College, how his college experience has helped him through life, his work history, and how he feels about Lakeland College now.
Introduction: This interview was conducted with Paul Kammann at his residence in Cleveland, Wisconsin. A majority of the interview was about Paul's years at Lakeland College. He attended Lakeland from 1963 to 1967 and graduated with a major in chemistry and a minor in mathematics. The interviewer worked for Paul on his farm from 1996 to 2003. Since then, he bought a thirty-six acre section of Paul's farm and they have remained in close contact since then.
In transcribing this recording, it is accurate for the most part, with the exception of repeated non words such as "uh," "so," and similar word and sounds or where there are summaries of the actions in brackets. Some spellings and fragments have been included in the effort to keep the context and Midwestern vernacular intact.
An Interview with Paul Kammann:
Steven Vlietstra: As far as Lakeland goes, you were there from '64?
Paul Kammann: Ahh, let's see.
Vlietstra: Or was it or '63?
Kammann: Well it would have been the fall of '63 and I graduated in the spring of '67, all right. And of course I was, I lived off campus, you know, I was a commuter. And uh, I don't recall what percentage were commuter versus students that lived there. But I know I remember at that time, they seemed to think, at least I came away with the impression that commuters were kinda the second class citizens out there. We always felt, us commuters, that they felt they could make more money off the students that lived on the campus cause you got room and board. It seemed, it seemed like after a while that we just got the short end of whatever was there, offered. I always had that feeling that we were not the top of the line out there.
Vlietstra: Yeah, I know about two years ago, they started a non-traditional campus club or something like that. Actually, they give us free lunch every couple of months.
Kammann: If you want to look at the number of students that, who tend to call that college home, it's really changed as far as the ratio as the ones who live on campus and who live off campus. I think they realize that there's money to be made on both students.
Vlietstra: How many students were there when you went to Lakeland?
Kammann: There was not more than three to four hundred, if that. Yet there were, if I recall, there were students from all over the country, you know, that, I mean, there were a lot of local kids, you know, the kids that I had gone to high school with, or something like that too, but as I recall there were a fair number of students that were out of state or, you know, that were quite a ways away that Lakeland had attracted at that time
Vlietstra: Did it have the international interest like it does now?
Kammann: No! No, not like it does now. I'm, I was just trying to think if there were even any students that were out, from outside the country. I hardly recall any. That would have been, I betcha there wasn't any.[Flipping through a year book from 1963]
Kammann: I was looking through these old Spectrums, looking at some of these pictures. It was interesting. It looked as, as the years that I was there, that it wasn't too important to get your picture in, in this Spectrum. I think my picture was only when I was a senior. And even in our classes, there was only a handful that had their pictures taken. Before that, I mean, there were a lot of unlisted pictures. But then, during that time span it seemed like if you weren't a senior it didn't matter if your picture was in there or not. I think it was kinda one of those things at the time that things were looked at that way. But thinking back at the old professors. Trying to remember some of those guys.
Vlietstra: What were your classes like?
Kammann: Well, well, I recall, I remember the first year all the classes were really easy for me. Cause I had a real good high school background. I know some of the other kids; they really had to buckle down. They hadn't learned that stuff in high school. For me, it was just kind of a repeat that first year. It was duck soup here, ya know. And so, apparently that was the way it was set up. They didn't know what their training was and what their education they had behind them. They had to make sure they had the basics before. Like, like I was a chemistry major. I remember that general chemistry class — that was just a vacation. I had to take it, you know, we were required. That was all stuff that we knew hands down before we got there. But the kids that didn't have a good background, it was important for them to pull those classes or otherwise they would really be in trouble the next year. So, the first year always was mostly all requirement stuff. You know, so everybody had to take those courses no matter what their major was. Of course, that was probably part of it too. The kids who wanted to be English majors, you know, they didn't want anything to do with chemistry in the first place. And so that was probably part of it too. Cause actually, there weren't that many chemistry guys there. None of my friends were chemistry guys, you know. So maybe that's what I'm thinking of, cause they had to really had to fight through them classes to get the basics down. But, cause shoot, I think there couldn't have been more than three, four of us graduating with chemistry degree.
Vlietstra: Well, that's pretty similar to today, though.
Kammann: Is that right?
Vlietstra: Yeah, there's not that many science majors.
Kammann: Yeah, yeah, okay. But I know we had, but like I said, that was my major. I remember, like I said. After the second, or in the sophomore year, we really got into some of the tougher classes. You really had to buckle down to get, get your work done. But we had, we were fortunate in that the head of the chemistry department at that time was David Rath. David Rath. I don't think he was a doctor when I was there. But, he was doing his doctorate work at Argon National Laboratories down in Chicago, which is a nuclear facility down there. And with his connections, that's where he was doing his doctorate work at. And he arranged for us to go down there and work with different instruments and experiments, you know, in a nuclear reactor and other things. And, I'm trying to think, I think usually it was just a one day shot. We would go and leave real early, drive down with a couple cars, you know, and then you wouldn't get back till late, late, late you know. But, it really gave us a chance to get our hands on stuff that otherwise you would've never seen anywhere, you know. Which was, which was great. It was always a little fun anyways. We'd stop for lunch and things. And then, driving down it was all a bunch of kids, you know, goofing off in the car all the way down and back. But then they also, he arranged. They had that winterim, they called it, that middle semester. That started when I was there, too. You had to take, at that time, you had to take at least two years of that. It wasn't every year every year you had to take it. But when I started, they must have started that when I was maybe a junior, I think. I know that one winter course, I took, then we spent a number of days down there. But that was kind of a general course, there were a lot of other students, they weren't just chemistry people in on that course. Then we spent, I don't know, I'm going to say three, four days down there at a time. You know, there was a class ahead of time preparing you for everything and then went down there and tried to show that you learned something when you were down at the laboratory for a couple of days. So we stayed overnight down there. We must have rented some hotels or something. It must have been part of the arrangements.
Vlietstra: Is that lab still there?
Kammann: Yep, Argon National Laboratories is still down there.
Vlietstra: How many kids were usually in a class?
Kammann: In a general class or in my, in a chemistry class?
Vlietstra: Ummm, in a general?
Kammann: Well, in a general class, then you'd, you know, you'd have thirty or forty kids in there at a time, but if, like, you, you're required courses. But if you were, like, in a chemistry class, well in general chemistry, then everyone was in there again. But, but once you got into your second year, then you'd maybe would have half a dozen, maybe.
Vlietstra: Oh, really?
Kammann: Yeah, well, the thing is, in a lecture, you could have any number, but in a lab, you're limited by the lab bench. Everybody's got to have their own cubicle to work in, you know. Then you start having a lot of, if you have a big class you have to have a giant lab to service all those kids. Same thing with some of those other courses, you know. Once you got into those, you know, like, physics and calculus and that kind of stuff, then your class size is, although I'm thinking like in calculus and even physics classes were probably ten to a dozen in there. I'm trying to think if that was taught by, no, I don't think, that was a different. The physics was that Kutum Puro, that professor from India. He was a physics professor there. Zacharias. Vincent Zacharias Kutum Puro. He'd introduce himself. Just a little sharp guy, but dressed real sharp. Always beautiful suits and everything, you know, and well-dressed guy. He walked in there and introduced himself with that long name and everyone would kind of like pull back, and he said ‘but you can call me Vince.' And so that's the way it was. He was a sharp guy, you know, he knew his business, but I often wondered, but I found out later, now here in the last couple of years, that he's a big developer in the state of Wisconsin here. Building condominium complexes, things like that. I often wondered how he got that way. But now that I think about it, he helped me get a part time job at Vinyl Plastics in Sheboygan in their chemistry, in their lab up there. He knew, personally knew, the owners and some of the big shots at Vinyl, so he must have had some connections there already somehow. I wonder just how he got to be what he's doing now. He isn't teaching physics now anymore. He was an interesting guy.
Vlietstra: So were your classes, like, for Monday, Wednesday, Friday, for an hour or how, how did they structure those?
Kammann: Yeah, it was, right, it was like around hour length. And, like you said, some classes were twice a week, some were three times a week so you could kind of structure your day, if you could. You know, so some days were really packed and other days weren't so full. It helped, well what I had done when I, when I got started, I took as many credits as they'd let me. Cause back then, you could, I'm trying to think what the tuition was, but it was maybe five to six hundred bucks a semester. And, we had, there was a minimum credits I think you had to carry, but you could actually carry more and not pay any more that that five to six hundred dollars. I always loaded up as much as I could, cause I felt, well, that's more for the dollar. And, you know, every, every, I had no scholarships. I paid every penny that that school cost me. That came out of my pocket. There was nothing given to us, and then. So it was important for me to get that, and then the other thing was I figured I could get it done quicker and that worked out good because then the last semester of my senior year there, I was only carrying a couple credits. It was all I needed to finish and I could work. I was married already by that time, and I could work, you know, I could work right away cause I had other responsibilities going. But, I recall, I think it was in my sophomore year or my junior year, I was really loading up with classes and they actually made me drop one class. They said, "You're getting too many." And it was, I actually got the book here yet, it was Microbiology was the class I dropped and it was a class I was, it didn't fit into my major or anything like that, but it was something I thought I'd be interested in. So, I already bought the book and had attended a week or two of classes when they called me in and gave me the news that I had to drop one class because I had like twenty-two credits or something like that. So I dropped that class, always figured well, maybe I can get there next year or something, you know. But it never worked out again. So all I got is the book here to show for it because that was taught by Professor Wangeman. And he was considered a good instructor, a knowledgeable man there, you know, it was tough, it was a tough course, but it was something I wanted to learn about, but I never got the opportunity after that because other things shaped up and I had other responsibilities.
Vlietstra: I wonder if he is any relation to that Wangeman that writes for the paper?
Kammann: Ya, actually he kind of looks like him a little bit, now that you mention it. I don't know. I really don't recall his family history. Of course the other, let's see, that was between my junior and senior year, then I worked on construction, building those dormitories on the north side of the campus there. The whole idea was that that was a good paying job. I could make enough on that summer construction to pay my tuition the next year, you know. If I remember right, I started on June 6, 1966, it was the first day working for outside money. They were paying $3.45 an hour. Boy, that was big bucks! I remember, well, there was a couple other guys from school that were working there too, a summer job, you know. There was a couple of us together. There was one guy, he was even a school teacher, he worked that job in the summer making extra dollars, but yeah. The thing is, cripes, you know, like I said, that job paid $3.45 an hour, and yet when I was working for, I was working part time in that Vinyl Plastics lab, you know, while I was going to school. And the understanding was that then they would hire me full time when I graduated. So I was working there. They were paying me $2 an hour, working in the lab, you know. That was pretty tight wages. But I suppose that what it was. But then, when I graduated, I thought, ‘Well, now I'm gonna make the big bucks.' Well, that turned out to be 425 dollars a month. And I was, I thought ‘Holy cats!, that was less than I had made when I was working construction, for Gods sakes, you know, and here a college graduate with a degree?! And I'm making 425 dollars a month? What have I done here?' I didn't, I stayed at that company until fall, I graduated in spring, and I stayed till fall. And then I started looking around for other jobs and left that company. At that time, that's when, well that was 1967, and the Vietnam War was going full blast so there were a lot of munitions companies looking for chemists. Like Baraboo Ammunitions plant down there and that were going full bore. I had job offers there — there was a lot of job offers. I probably had a dozen to pick from once I really started looking around. Because things were going pretty strong. But I ended up working in Madison then instead. That's the job I took that time.
Vlietstra: At the gas...?
Kammann: At the Madison Gas and Electric as a corrosion engineer, that's what one of my responsibilities was there. At the time, there was no such thing as a degree in a corrosion engineering. A chemistry degree would cover that kind of work or a chemical engineer or something like that. So that's where really I got into that kind of business at that time.
Vlietstra: Were a lot of people at the time college graduates, or … during the 60s?
Kammann: Well, what happened then, you know, is if you graduated from college and weren't married, you got drafted.
Kammann: If you were married, I was married before I graduated. I was exempt from the draft. A lot of my friends that were in school with me, they weren't married, they went, they went to Nam when they graduated.
Vlietstra: Cause kind of what it seems like now, you know, a lot of, a majority of the population goes to college and gets either a two- or a four-year degree, so now, you know, college graduates …
Kammann: Oh, I see what you're driving at. I don't know what percentage of the, say my high school graduation class that went to college, I would say, I'm thinking, probably, oh I'm sure was no more than half if that, if that. You know, cause a lot of. There was always guys that didn't want to continue on school — they were better at other things. I bet it wasn't half. No way! I'm just trying to think of the number of people that, no, I betcha it was twenty-five percent. But nowadays, what do you think the percentage is nowadays?
Vlietstra: I would guess two-thirds.
Kammann: Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that. But that's how the worth of a degree has changed.
Vlietstra: Well, yeah, that's exactly it. Now college grads are a dime a dozen.
Kammann: Yeah, if you don't have that, you're nobody. Yeah, well when I graduated, a college degree was unusual, no doubt about that. Yah, I was the first one, well the only one in my family who went on to college. My other brothers and sisters went on to tech schools and things like that. College was something special back then.
Vlietstra: So, did you have the students who sluffed off?
Kammann: In college? Oh yeah there were rich kids. Putting in their time. They had a job back home in their dad's factory. There were some really sharp people. I was a little above average and that's about it. School was hard for me. I had to really work hard to get by. I really enjoyed it. There was one guy, I think he was a year older than I was. We hung out once in a while. He was a real sharp guy. He ended up, I see his name once in a while in the alumni reports. He ended up, if I recall, he ended up a vice president or more of General Mills. He and I studied together. I forget what he was majoring. Him and I would study. Wed study for a test and Id know the stuff just as good as he did. That the way school was for me. But for him, he was a pretty sharp.
Vlietstra: Were the professors pretty tough back then?
Kammann: It ranged.
Vlietstra: I suppose.
Kammann: When I was there, Lakeland got their accreditation. Of course, then you, I have to have so many doctors on the staff. There were all kinds of standards you had to meet. So they brought in additional professors. I didn't remember just how that worked. But then there were tests we had to pass to prove that the students were meeting these standards, too. And, oh boy, I tell you, I remember, I was fortunate that I had, when I was taking these courses, that I had these new professors that were gonna make these tests. So we knew, in our class, what to expect, or what the professor wanted, you know, how I thinking right now of an English class, you know, writing papers, things like that. How he wanted a story told or whatnot that would meet his approval. And I remember some of the older students; they were shaking in their boots. They had one of the other, the older type of professors that was kind of easy on that kind of stuff, and wasn't in charge of that department anymore, you know. And they just didn't know if they were gonna be able to make that. They just didn't go through that new professors training, you know. And so we were, we were just lucky. I remember some of those nights we were studying and one of my friends, I remember, he had an older sister that was in college at the same time — a couple years older — she had missed that, that new professor and, oh, we went over things for her many times trying to help her so she knew how to prepare to pass those tests because. I mean, like I said, some of the toughest teachers were some of the high school teachers, you know, I remember one lady; she was a stickler for every detail. She taught that Greek mythology and stuff and, man, you know how complicated that can get. And she knew that stuff and she expected us to know that too, and of course, you know, the sad thing was it was a required course so, you know, for a person taking chemistry, I knew this isn't going to pay my wages anyway and all, but I had to get it done, you know, and so you did what you had to. Those required courses now, you had to take German and foreign languages and it was required to have two years of German was the normal for a chemistry degree. Well, it might be any foreign language, I don't remember, but I remember I took the first-year of German. The first year of German is, is mostly vocabulary, and I was really good at that because we spoke German at home, and some of the vocabulary I could get by pretty easy with that. But then the next year was gonna be the grammar and, boy, I didn't know German grammar. We spoke kind of 'farmer German' and so I was shaking in my boots for that second year of German and I knew that was going to be a battle so I, I had a meeting with my chemistry prof, he was my advisor, guidance counselor, whatever, I don't know, but I made an arrangement with him. I told him, this is what I want. I said, if you let me take all chemistry classes here this last year, I won't have room for German, that second year of German. Would that be all right if I took all chemistry classes? And he agreed that he could live with that and so I dodged that second year of German and was able to carry more chemistry courses. Well, it's just like when they made me drop that microbiology course, you know, by right, I don't know if they had the right to make me do that or not, but.
Vlietstra: Well, I know now, they, uh, the lower level for full time is twelve credits and the upper level is eighteen. If you take more than eighteen, you have to pay five hundred bucks.
Kammann: OK, see that wasn't that way back then. The more you could cram in there, the more you got for your dollar.
Vlietstra: I think the best way is if they charge per credit.
Kammann: Well, I agree, it's just that some classes are, I mean you got what two-credit classes, or three-credit classes?
Vlietstra: Uh yeah, three, with a lab it would be four.
Kammann: OK, so it is, it varies by the type of class. Right. Right. Now that you mention it, the lab is, that would count as... I always enjoyed the labs. That was, that was the reason I took chemistry. I, I liked working in the lab. I don't know why I did. I, probably after a while, I would rather be outside, I guess, but I really enjoyed working in the lab and some of the, like, some of the chemistry courses you had quantitative analysis, qualitative analysis, you know, which are really big lab courses. And uh, that was always, those were old labs in there. There was nothing, I mean, it was …
Vlietstra: Uh, I think the labs are still pretty old.
Kammann: Well, yeah, well they built that new building. You know, I've never been in there. That was [chuckles] that reminds me, when that new chemistry or whatever was being built, that new science building. When they built that, our head chemistry professor, he was kind of the architect behind that. Laying all that out cause he was the head of the chemistry department, and once in a while, if we were just really not in the mood for studying real hard, wed get him going on and going over those blueprints and explaining that building. He'd shoot the whole hour explaining the blue prints and how the lines are going to run. We'd kind of have a day off then [laughs]. Oh yeah, that was the big project for him. He would have that plus whatever else he had going on. He was always, plus he was going for his doctorates, you know, down there. He'd be down there sometimes and so he, he really burned the candle at both ends while that was going on. And, he didn't live that much, that long — he died young. I don't know when that was anymore, but it was, he was that old.
Vlietstra: So, did you have a tutor program back then?
Kammann: Hmmmm. I never had one. I don't remember if there was such a thing. There must have been something like that.
Vlietstra: Yeah, I wonder if that was part of the accreditation. Well, they're going through the whole accreditation thing now.
Vlietstra: Yeah. From what I understand they had a bit of a scare because they normally renew it for …
Kammann: Ohhhh, Ok, that isn't permanent then.
Kammann: Well, that's the way it should be.
Vlietstra: Oh, yeah. I'm trying to think, I think they normally renew it for seven or ten years, and then this time around they gave it a temporary thing, like five or seven years. You know, it was less, and they said 'you guys better fix this, this, this, and this or were not going to renew it.'
Kammann: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure that should be it. I was just thinking another thing when, see when I started in '63, in the fall, then that was the first year that it was changed to Lakeland College from Mission House. Before that, it was Mission House. Cause that was another change. Well that was all going along with this accreditation, you know, it was all Lakeland College and make it sound more scholarly, but back then, before that, it was Mission House.
Vlietstra: So what made you pick Lakeland? Was it just the proximity?
Kammann: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know it's five, what is it, five miles from home to there? And, well, my dad had gone there when, that is where he went to high school. It was an academy they called it. And, uh, you know, he had gone there for that and, but the reason I went there was strictly, you know, we could save, I could still help here at home, and drive to school, and get home again to help again some more.
Vlietstra: What did you drive then?
Kammann: Hah! The first car I had was a '51 Studebaker. And the fenders were flopping in the breeze when you drove there and the damn heater didn't work in the winter. I had that, that in high school already and, uh, when I started in college already, then I bought a '62 Impala because, you know, I was driving to school every day. So that was, that was my school car. I don't recall if that Studebaker was leaving me sit or not, but that, I wasn't arguing with a new car [laughs] well, it was a used one, but there was a lot newer than that Studebaker.
Vlietstra: So did you, you didn't go on to get your master's degree, did you?
Kammann: No. No, no, no, no. I was, I had enough education that I thought it was time to make some money. Like I said, I enjoyed working much more than I enjoyed going to school, I just, it was easier for me to work and get something accomplished. I had toyed with the idea. I probably would of, could of, if I could have done it all over, I probably should have gone into chemical engineering or something like that cause I, I was, I would have, you know that engineering background, I could have used as well, but for, for the kind of work that I had and did, I had more education than I ever really needed. I mean the education, I mean, sure you learn things, but the biggest thing you learn is how to learn. That's what I feel school is all about. Because when you go to a different job or a different field or something, you gotta learn everything about that again and how do you, how you learn is important and, and, cause some of those required courses, you know, the actual knowledge you gain, you'll probably never use in, out in the real world. But you learn how to pick up things and use things and adapt things — that's really what it's all about. And I certainly had different kinds of jobs over my lifetime, and people would wonder sometimes 'What are you doing here?' [Laughs] But, I mean, it's all how you apply yourself.
Vlietstra: So is that how you feel Lakeland College benefited you most?
Kammann: Absolutely! Yeah, I, you know, it's just I guess that's probably part of a liberal arts college. You get a wider base on things, you know.
Vlietstra: Well rounded.
Kammann: Yeah. You don't really know what you're going to end up doing unless you really got things under control, but it gives you the flexibility to step into things you had no idea even existed or came along later in life that, you know, you could use some of that information. Its the training — that's what it's all about, I think.
Vlietstra: So, as a Lakeland alum, do you approve of all the changes and everything?
Kammann: Hah, well, well, it's like any business, you know, you have to grow to stay in business. And they certainly seem to have a real business model working that they, I mean they're expanding. They seem to be able to raise money to do the things that they want to do. I really think what they've done with this, I don't know, I forget what they call it, but this continuing education thing that they're, you know, bringing people back all the time for night schools and things like that is, is really a good idea and, in this world anyways. I mean, back when I first took my first job when I was in Madison, I mean the thinking back then was you got a job for life. I mean, if you do a good job, and you want to stay there, you'd be there for the rest of your life. Nowadays, you don't know where you're gonna be in five years. You know, the company could completely roll over, go south, and I mean, people just …
Vlietstra: Yeah, mergers …
Kammann: You have to be so flexible these days, I mean, holy mackerel. That, that is what one of the things that makes that kind of education availability important because people can say, 'Well, jeeze, I wonder if I have to pick up something else if my old job doesn't go on.' So it seems that Lakeland is really adapting to that need.
Vlietstra: Well, that pretty much wraps it up with the questions I had prepared, unless you had anything to add …
Kammann: Any advice? Well, I guess, I guess if there's one point that I'd like to reinforce, in my personal view, uh, you know when I went to Lakeland, I paid everything myself. I mean nobody helped me get through there. And, and I'm very reluctant to give somebody else my money that doesn't, I know I could do it myself. And, and, we weren't rich people or anything like that, you know, we had to work for everything that costs, so I'm always a little put off when I get a phone call from somebody asking for money. First of all, I don't give money to anybody that calls me first. I mean, that's just a rule that I have. If I want to give somebody money, Ill seek them out and then, and then I'll know where I'm going with it. As far as I'm concerned, I'm sure their figure and whatnot show them that it pays to cold call people and ask for money, but they can take my name off that list if they wanted to, because it won't happen.
Vlietstra: Yeah. Yeah, that's a pretty active campaign that they have going.
Kammann: Yep, yeah, you know, I get a call a couple times a year for sure. I mean, I know the answer to give, so it doesn't bother me any but they can save their time. I mean, it isn't just Lakeland; I just don't give money to somebody that calls me on the phone and asks for money. Even if I know, know the company or the college or whatever it is. I just don't agree with that kind of approach.
Vlietstra: Yeah, I agree. I've either had to pay my way or find my own way to pay. That's how I've had to deal with it the whole time.
Kammann: Yeah, not that it makes it easy, you know, maybe it teaches what you're going to find out once you step out the door into the real world. You're gonna have to earn your way through everything to get there.
Vlietstra: Yeah, well that's one thing that I noticed just in classes, that, you know, a lot of the kids will be making less than what I pay in taxes on a paycheck. You know, and they're sitting there talking about what we should do as a nation and everything and it's like, jeeze, it's all well and good until …
Kammann: You have to pay that all.
Vlietstra: Yeah, especially at the county — I would have five hundred bucks taken out of every paycheck.
Kammann: Is that right? You need some dependents. But well wait for that. [Laughs]
This concluded the interview from an academic standpoint. We talked for another half an hour, but about topics not related to school in particular.Back to top